Comments on: BlueJ Considered Harmful http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/ Utterly random, incoherent and disjointed rants and ramblings... Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:59:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: Fab http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-8577 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:05:20 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-8577 BlueJ is really helpful for students to grasp the concepts of OO programming. It is entirely true it won't teach them how to get their hands dirty on using a text editor and a compiler, and they may even not be able to create a program from scratch without BlueJ. That's because it's not the purpose of BlueJ. They will have to learn how to use these tools anyway if they want to do real programming, but they certainly don't have to learn OO concetps the right way that's why it is important to teach them, and the earlier, the better. That's the purpose of BlueJ. BlueJ is really helpful for students to grasp the concepts of OO programming. It is entirely true it won’t teach them how to get their hands dirty on using a text editor and a compiler, and they may even not be able to create a program from scratch without BlueJ.

That’s because it’s not the purpose of BlueJ.

They will have to learn how to use these tools anyway if they want to do real programming, but they certainly don’t have to learn OO concetps the right way that’s why it is important to teach them, and the earlier, the better.

That’s the purpose of BlueJ.

]]> by: Luke http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-2570 Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:30:47 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-2570 Do they really though? Because I really don't see the marvelous results of the BlueJ approach. What I see is a throng of students who lack the basic programming skills, in addition to the very shaky grasp of the OO concepts. Most of my generation started using really old school stuff. My first programming steps were done in C and Basic. I compiled my first Java program by logging into a unix workstation via ssh, and using vi and javac. I turned out just fine - and most of my colleagues did to. The only way to actually introduce students to real programing - the kind they will be required to do at at their future jobs is to wean them off BlueJ. So why not just start them off right. They might struggle a bit at the beginning but that's normal. We all went through it. Ultimately, they either get it or not. But I think what we are doing here, is creating yet another hurdle they have to jump through. Now they will have to make the leap from BlueJ Java to real Java at some point, and it might be difficult. So instead of a uniformly steep difficulty curve, we fist give them a very gentle hill, then a 50 feet brick wall to climb, just so that they can catch up to the rest of Java students who were climbing the steep curve since the begging. Most of the BlueJ kids will never catch up because they lack the strong programing foundation you get from doing things the old school way. Do they really though? Because I really don’t see the marvelous results of the BlueJ approach. What I see is a throng of students who lack the basic programming skills, in addition to the very shaky grasp of the OO concepts.

Most of my generation started using really old school stuff. My first programming steps were done in C and Basic. I compiled my first Java program by logging into a unix workstation via ssh, and using vi and javac. I turned out just fine - and most of my colleagues did to.

The only way to actually introduce students to real programing - the kind they will be required to do at at their future jobs is to wean them off BlueJ. So why not just start them off right. They might struggle a bit at the beginning but that’s normal. We all went through it. Ultimately, they either get it or not.

But I think what we are doing here, is creating yet another hurdle they have to jump through. Now they will have to make the leap from BlueJ Java to real Java at some point, and it might be difficult.

So instead of a uniformly steep difficulty curve, we fist give them a very gentle hill, then a 50 feet brick wall to climb, just so that they can catch up to the rest of Java students who were climbing the steep curve since the begging. Most of the BlueJ kids will never catch up because they lack the strong programing foundation you get from doing things the old school way.

]]> by: jj http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-2568 Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:33:54 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-2568 I could not disagree more. With BlueJ, the student automatically understands important issues such as modularity and state, intutively. Objects in BlueJ are "live". It almost feels like a Smalltalk environment. I could not disagree more. With BlueJ, the student automatically understands important issues such as modularity and state, intutively. Objects in BlueJ are “live”. It almost feels like a Smalltalk environment.

]]> by: ZeWrestler http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1219 Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:50:05 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1219 ahh. i meant jgrasp ahh. i meant jgrasp

]]> by: ZeWrestler http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1218 Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:49:36 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1218 same here. mix in a splash of bluejay that i had to teach to myself. and you get my cmpt183 same here. mix in a splash of bluejay that i had to teach to myself. and you get my cmpt183

]]> by: Luke http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1217 Sun, 24 Sep 2006 06:46:33 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1217 It can be done. In fact it was done this way when I was a freshman there. We wrote most of the introductory programs using <em>pico</em> on <em>pegasus</em>. It can be done. In fact it was done this way when I was a freshman there. We wrote most of the introductory programs using pico on pegasus.

]]> by: Jenn Schiffer http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1213 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:21:23 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1213 I learned java with notepad and pico, and I have to say that it makes it a whole lot easier to use the language...since you're not always going to have jgrasp and bluej. I dare any MSU professor in a basic java course to assign their students a notepad-use-only program. They best have a few boxes of Kleenex and some Xanax on hand. I learned java with notepad and pico, and I have to say that it makes it a whole lot easier to use the language…since you’re not always going to have jgrasp and bluej. I dare any MSU professor in a basic java course to assign their students a notepad-use-only program. They best have a few boxes of Kleenex and some Xanax on hand.

]]> by: Luke http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1211 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:27:42 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1211 I would make them code in friken notepad for the first 2-3 months just to drive home the message that all you need to program is a compiler and a text editor of sorts. I would make them code in friken notepad for the first 2-3 months just to drive home the message that all you need to program is a compiler and a text editor of sorts.

]]> by: ZeWrestler http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1210 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:11:48 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1210 Rather than something like jgrasp, eclipse if they want to makes lives easier (syntax completion) or pico if you want to go under the hood. Rather than something like jgrasp, eclipse if they want to makes lives easier (syntax completion) or pico if you want to go under the hood.

]]> by: Luke http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1209 Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:54:56 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/09/22/bluej-considered-harmful/#comment-1209 I think that a big problem in CS courses at MSU right now is that they concentrate at teaching students how to use an IDE instead of teaching the language itself. I think that a big problem in CS courses at MSU right now is that they concentrate at teaching students how to use an IDE instead of teaching the language itself.

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