Comments on: Diceless or Dice Heavy RPG? http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/ Utterly random, incoherent and disjointed rants and ramblings... Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:37:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: Lance Dyas http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-10806 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:39:32 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-10806 I became addicted to diceless.. because of the extra power both player and GM are granted... or maybe it was because I did it before dice, My dad really taught us diceless roleplaying by having my brothers and I making decisions for characters during bed time stories back in the late 60's early seventies. You can get some of the effects of diceless gaming by taking the right philosophy even in a game with dice.. I have heard it called the "yes... but" or "not quite... instead" and interpreting the dice yourself. I have used dice in a diceless gaming where I basically used them hi good low bad and when I didnt have any opinion about the result and felt it could go either of two ways.. both which resulted in more interesting story.(note this was usually not combat... for that I came up with more mechanics for resolving things which were close... amber really didnt quite give me enough in that arena.. but between it and Lost Worlds and later my own training in kendo and karate well visualizing a dynamic conflict shouldnt ever require dice. I became addicted to diceless.. because of the extra power both player and GM are granted… or maybe it was because I did it before dice, My dad really taught us diceless roleplaying by having my brothers and I making decisions for characters during bed time stories back in the late 60’s early seventies. You can get some of the effects of diceless gaming by taking the right philosophy even in a game with dice.. I have heard it called the “yes… but” or “not quite… instead” and interpreting the dice yourself. I have used dice in a diceless gaming where I basically used them hi good low bad and when I didnt have any opinion about the result and felt it could go either of two ways.. both which resulted in more interesting story.(note this was usually not combat… for that I came up with more mechanics for resolving things which were close… amber really didnt quite give me enough in that arena.. but between it and Lost Worlds and later my own training in kendo and karate well visualizing a dynamic conflict shouldnt ever require dice.

]]> by: Alphast http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-10019 Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:23:38 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-10019 Frankly, I have never completely tried rule out dices all together. I love Amber (I mean the books), but I never made the step towards the game, precisely because of the absence of dices. As a GM, I can't be bothered with the rules, by the way. It is not that I am a simulationist. But dices are cool and colored and make a nice noise when they roll behind my screen, so my players and myself like to have them. I would call it a case of dice fetishism. By the way, we generally play games that are not very dice intensive and where even a full combat with 6 or 7 players and as many NPC's is still a short thing. I mentioned L5R, where combat is deadly and short (usually two rounds, sometimes three if there are multiple opponents per PC). We played Deadlands a lot too, and combat was slightly longer (because of the way initiative is dealt with by using poker cards). But still, these are no GURPS or OdM. Frankly, I have never completely tried rule out dices all together. I love Amber (I mean the books), but I never made the step towards the game, precisely because of the absence of dices. As a GM, I can’t be bothered with the rules, by the way. It is not that I am a simulationist. But dices are cool and colored and make a nice noise when they roll behind my screen, so my players and myself like to have them. I would call it a case of dice fetishism.

By the way, we generally play games that are not very dice intensive and where even a full combat with 6 or 7 players and as many NPC’s is still a short thing. I mentioned L5R, where combat is deadly and short (usually two rounds, sometimes three if there are multiple opponents per PC). We played Deadlands a lot too, and combat was slightly longer (because of the way initiative is dealt with by using poker cards). But still, these are no GURPS or OdM.

]]> by: Luke Maciak http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9976 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:17:47 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9976 <strong>@jambarama</strong> - a <em>"dicy"</em>, rule intensive game can be relatively user-friendly if you have a good GM. For example, the GURPS campaign I mentioned was very dice heavy, but we really didn't need to know the mechanics. If I wanted to make an action, I would ask the GM if my character would be able to do this. He would glance at the character sheet, and explain what roll I would need to make, and then I would decide if it was worth it. It was relatively painless despite somewhat complex combat resolution rules. <strong>@Steve</strong> - Neat formulat but it still seems like a bit of work. In an amberized game you would simply state you are cutting your way through the horde of goblins, let you know how long it will take, and warn you that going deeper might be dangerous (ie. to many enemies on all sides). @jambarama - a “dicy”, rule intensive game can be relatively user-friendly if you have a good GM. For example, the GURPS campaign I mentioned was very dice heavy, but we really didn’t need to know the mechanics.

If I wanted to make an action, I would ask the GM if my character would be able to do this. He would glance at the character sheet, and explain what roll I would need to make, and then I would decide if it was worth it. It was relatively painless despite somewhat complex combat resolution rules.

@Steve - Neat formulat but it still seems like a bit of work. In an amberized game you would simply state you are cutting your way through the horde of goblins, let you know how long it will take, and warn you that going deeper might be dangerous (ie. to many enemies on all sides).

]]> by: Steve http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9975 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:21:44 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9975 As I mentioned in your previous article on Mages and how we created a more simplified version of spellcasting complete with a fumble effects table, I don't mind dice in some situations. Later on, however, we changed the rule so that if you were a high level casting a relatively simple spell (fireball, magic missile) it always worked. We just got tired of rolling all the time. We did the same thing with fighting mobs. We simply got tired of fighting hordes of minor level monsters, so we created a formula that looked sort of like: level of monster (lom)/level of character (loc) = % chance that the monster has of even hitting char. Then we roll only on THAT chance first. Well, the DM does. So for a 10th level char fighting a level 2 monster, the chance of the monster even hitting the char was 20%. If the roll is 20 or less, fight as normal, otherwise we just assume the monster is dead. As I mentioned in your previous article on Mages and how we created a more simplified version of spellcasting complete with a fumble effects table, I don’t mind dice in some situations. Later on, however, we changed the rule so that if you were a high level casting a relatively simple spell (fireball, magic missile) it always worked. We just got tired of rolling all the time.

We did the same thing with fighting mobs. We simply got tired of fighting hordes of minor level monsters, so we created a formula that looked sort of like: level of monster (lom)/level of character (loc) = % chance that the monster has of even hitting char. Then we roll only on THAT chance first. Well, the DM does. So for a 10th level char fighting a level 2 monster, the chance of the monster even hitting the char was 20%. If the roll is 20 or less, fight as normal, otherwise we just assume the monster is dead.

]]> by: jambarama http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9973 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:41:37 +0000 http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2008/08/27/diceless-or-dice-heavy-rpg/#comment-9973 I don't care about dice - I think they're a red herring. Dice or no dice, I find I enjoy games more as possible strategy increases and complexity of rules decreases. I think of it as a division: Complexity of Strategy & Fun-ness ---------------------------------- Complexity of Rules & Gameplay This is largely the reason I don't play RPGs. The rules are so dang complex that they end up being the whole game. Maybe you could run a post inviting others to list their favorite board games - I'd be curious to see what you like! I don’t care about dice - I think they’re a red herring. Dice or no dice, I find I enjoy games more as possible strategy increases and complexity of rules decreases. I think of it as a division:

Complexity of Strategy & Fun-ness
———————————-
Complexity of Rules & Gameplay

This is largely the reason I don’t play RPGs. The rules are so dang complex that they end up being the whole game. Maybe you could run a post inviting others to list their favorite board games - I’d be curious to see what you like!

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